Fukasawa : People are repelled by any feeling of discomfort, and want to forget that. Even as I work on design, there are aspects that I find uncomfortable or strange. Still, I pretend not to notice.

But, it's like hangnail – something that you try to put back and make it unnoticeable but that always comes back. (Laughs) The sense of discomfort cannot be removed unless you clean it up from the cause. Discomfort is an element that is detected first by human sensors. Because it is so minor, many people think it not important enough to do something about. Surprisingly, however, it is a feeling shared by everyone.

It doesn't mean coming up with that major sensation. Identifying common issues is easier when you look into what everyone sees as discomfort, however minor, and resolve it.

Fukasawa : It relates to bodily function. I don't know whether it should be associated with human beings or just with the human body, but the differences in discomfort between different cultures and customs are minimal. Rather, it is closer to an animal instinct. Animals respond openly and avoid anything that is uncomfortable. Only humans try to tolerate discomfort. (Laughs) We are made to endure discomfort.

Fukasawa : I think so. But I wanted it to be that way. I focus on the sense of discomfort, the human body and nature, rather than on culture. I am often asked questions about what I think as a Japanese designer or about the Japanese sense of aesthetics. However, I don't have such things in mind. It's true – the Japanese are certainly meticulous about details. The sense of accomplishment is stronger that way. The Japanese have a strong determination and like to take on challenges. They work hard until they achieve their goal.

Fukasawa : Probably my commitment to achieving precisely what is being sought. I delve into the degree of precision. I don't know whether the term delve is appropriate. In other words, I drive myself toward it.

You may say it's detecting.

That is what I find exciting. What we find excitement and interesting is identifying what fits precisely and making that happen in design. Everyone can notice a disruption in the flow. Everyone, without exception.

Fukasawa : No, that's why we fix this 'disruption' for people who can't do it. That is why design is a service.

As I have explained, the degree of precision in the fit is determined by the place and time. The key is whether you can see it. Once you see it, the form is determined. It can be embodied. That is what is most exciting about design.

Because this is a job that examines it, it won't be so interesting if you can't do it. There are many requirements, such as marketing and numerical calculation, that we must satisfy. What is interesting is driving yourself to go beyond them, to achieve a better fit.

Fukasawa : That is a question that I am asked often. Speaking in terms of cooking, my role ends when the soup stock is ready. Basically, the seasoning has not been added yet. Muji has the least seasoning or none at all. European design, such as Italian design, is heavily seasoned. That seasoning may come from the culture or the creators or their sensibilities. It may be brand power.

My job is to prepare a soup stock that is delicious. If you have good stock, it will be delicious, no matter what you add – whether it be milk or salt.

Sometimes I'm asked to take charge of the seasoning as well. In such cases, I agree and study what the taste will be. The taste may be the brand or the nation or culture. When submitting a proposal, I make a point of identifying the differences, such as "these colours or ambience for this brand, these for France or Italy, etc.". Still, that's the job of the person responsible for seasoning. Mine is aimed at drawing out the flavour of the basic soup stock. That is why I don't differentiate designs by brand, nation or culture.

Fukasawa : That's right. It appears that Japan's umami taste is gaining great recognition. It is supposed to be glutamic acid or something, I don't know the details, but it is regarded as important around the world. People who know that may use descriptions like "Fukasawa's design has umami, expresses the umami taste or something like that". (Laughs)

If I am asked to add "my own taste", I will look at the aftertaste. I believe that the taste you feel directly lacks depth.

I don't think it is good when the taste is regarded as "delicious but somewhat heavy" or the like. Even in tropical countries where many dishes have a very strong piquant taste that can be felt immediately, I believe that the soup stock is regarded as important as well. I think that food isn't good if it's just spicy hot. (Laughs)

Aftertaste is felt later, like when you go to a good restaurant. I think the key is the flavour that you feel after chewing for a little while. I think this is a very subtle point.